Hi All,

As I promised in an earlier post I contacted the club concerning the complaints, questions and suggestions that no one seems to have been able to get an answer to.  I had a 30 - 40 minute conversation with the club today and this is what I found out.  The questions and answers are posted below. 

Q:  There has been a real problem with members not receiving testing products, and the feeling is, once you become a life member, you don't get any products to test.  The feeling is, the product testing "promise" is a scam to solicit members and get dues.  What's the deal?

A:  Product testing is a program where the members are given an opportunity to assist product manufacturers with field testing various products to get feed back on those products.  Members must fill out a product test profile to be considered for the program.  Once the member gets a product to test, and they complete the testing feedback form, they must fill out a new product test profile.  However, if a member receives a product to test, and they do not submit their test report, they are removed from the product test program perminently, regardless if they submit another profile or not. - Therefore, when you receive a product, FILL OUT THE TEST REPORT and SUBMIT IT.

Q:  There is an issue concerning the Member's Store.  It only contains the Item of the Week, and nothing else.  Why doesn't the Member Store contain items that are specific to the club, like the books, videos, patches, decals, clothing items and other specials?  Afterall, why should a member have to shop e-bay or other websites to obtain what is supposed to be "MEMBERS ONLY" type products?

A:  Currently there is a major turn over in manufacturers supplying goods to the club.  The Information Technology folks are working on revamping the Members Store to include these items so members can purchase club merchandise from the website.  They estimate that around the first part of December, this project should be complete and the new member's store posted and available.

Q:  I have posted a few questions to the Ask the Editors section of the website, and in talking to other members, and seeing the various forum discussions, the editors and club higher ups don't ever answer.  What's the story?

A:  The editors are supposed to supply answers to questions within 48 hours after the question is posted.  We will have to work harder to make sure this is happening.  It is difficult, given the number of other issues with the website to actually be able to do this.  We prioritize the issues with log in problems being at the top of the list, then work our way down.  Members that have pressing questions can call member services to get answers faster.

SUGGESTION:  I posed this suggestion to the club.  Why not find a few members and give them moderator access to the website, and provide them with phone numbers to various departments within the club, so they can contact the "horse's mouth" to get the answers so they can keep the members informed.  This would help take the work load off the member services, provide the members with more immediate feedback, and help the members FEEL they mean something to the club, and not just a source of revenue.  Moderators would involve the members in productive methods of conflict resolution, alleviate some complaints, and get members involved in feeling more in tune with the club.  RESPONSE:  This is an excellent suggestion and one that we will look at!

Q:  Once you pay your life membership fee, it's like the club forgets about you.  Why is that?

A:  All members are important to the club.  No member should ever feel so disgruntled that they would loose interest in the club.  We will make a more concerted effort to address some of these issues involving the morale of the members.

Q:  Back to product testing.  It seems like the members only get silly nit-noid items to test.  For example, hand warmers in July, fishing line, hooks, and such.  I understand not every member will be able to test a Lund boat, or a Fish Finder, or even a high end rod and reel combo, however, I do see these types of items have been tested.  How are the members selected to test these "high value" items?

A:  The product testing list is a tier type system.  The more products a member tests, and more importantly, completes the test report in a timely fashion, the faster the member and the more likely the member will be selected to test items that are more substantial.  Keep in mind, the test profiles are first come, first served basis, but with the higher end test products, more scrutiny is given in determining how these products will be sent out.  MY TAKE:  When you get a product to test, do the report, send it in, fill out a new profile, and be patient. 

Q:  It doesn't seem like anyone knows who the club president is, or any of the officers of the club.  You never hear anything about them or even know who they are.  For all that matter, how do members of the club even get involved in decision making type positions?

A:  This is something that we will address. 

SUGGESTION:  Can't the website contain a "directory of officers" with a bio of some sort so the members will know who the leadership is, and perhaps an occasional "Hi how are you" type thing from the president of the club?  RESPONSE:  This is another excellent suggestion and something certainly worth considering!

Q:  Concerning unsolicited mailings from the club.  I spoke with a member who received a calander and he didn't pay particular attention to the letter that came with it.  A few weeks later, he received a "nasty gram" saying pay us for the calendar.  What is the deal with mailing stuff to the members then demanding payment for the item when the member didn't request the item be sent in the first place?

A:  Any item sent to a member that is like a book, video, calander, or what ever, comes with return address label and postage.  The member can just send the item back at no cost to them.  If the member does not want to recieve these types of materials from the club, they can either call member services, who will process that request, or they can write to the club and ask that they do not receive these things.  We do not want the members to feel that they must buy things from the club or feel obliged to do so.  SUGGESITON:  If these items were available to be sold in the Member Store, the member could just order the items directly from the club, and order specifically what they wanted.  Not only would this alleviate the member from feeling obliged to buy the item, or inconvenienced in shipping the item back, but it would save the club money in postage and complaints from the members who receive such items.  Not to mention, occassionally mailmen are not infallable, they do misdeliver items to wrong addresses, things get lost in the mail, then the member ends up possibly getting a bill for goods they never received.  It has the potential of creating headaches and ill feelings, not only on the business side of the club, but more importantly, for the member.  RESPONSE:  This is something that can certainly be addressed and something definitely worth considering!  Members that are interested in obtaining books and videos specifically, we do have a list of all the titles available that can be obtained by calling member services.  We are more than happy to send the member that list so they can complete their libraries and video collections.

Q:  One last question concerning member gifts, magazine subscriptions and stuff like that.  Why does it seem to take so long to get this stuff once you pay your dues?  Personally, I have not yet received any of these items and I am curious as to when I can expect my items.

A:  From the time your membership is processed, and depending on the availability of the item, it takes 7 to 21 business days to process the payment and ship the item out to the member.  If you have not received your membership items or your magazine within this time frame, contact member services and we can get a status on your items.  If necessary, we can reorder the items and ship them out to the member.  We maintain tracking numbers on these things and can always get a status of a shipment or subscription.  We can even provide the member with the postal tracking number so they can track the item as well.

 

I know this doesn't address everything with the concerns of the members.  I did STRONGLY SUGGEST the club leadership become more involved with the members through the website.  At the very least, they should be viewing the forums and responding as appropriate, meaning answer questions, provide guidance, and take the time to get to know their members, their needs, wants and desires.  I also told them that no one wants to belong to a club just for the sake of belonging to a club.  People join clubs for interaction, to feel like they matter and mean something.  People don't pay dues for the sake of spending money.  Members should matter, and they should be the priority...

Time will tell if the discussion with the club meant anything, or if it was a waste of my morning.  But for the members, I have done my part in voicing the concerns, complaints, and suggestions, as I promised to do.  The rest is up to them.

Take care friends...

Any day on the water or in the woods is solitude itself.

I've been around here a long time, and I've seen many positive improvements to the club. Many of them have been from suggestions from members like theolan. As the club has grown, those in charge have adjusted things accordingly. Never as fast as the members demand and sometimes maybe not as fast as they should have, but things are much better than they were. So ask yourself: Is your glass half full? Or is your glass half empty? Or is your glass just too big? To paraphrase J.F.K.: Ask not what your club can do for you, ask what you can do for your club.

 

Thanks for helping us all out theolan.

 

 

Be Fishers of People. You catch, He Cleans. Life Member since 2/17/92 One of the "Illinoiz Boyz" "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

Probably BigBarry.  I suspected as much when I called them.  I figured if I voiced the questions and complaints that I have seen on the forums and what I received through e-mails and private messages and make some suggestions as a way to initiate some sort of constructive dialog with the club, at least if I got blown off, I would have a basis from which to have a legitimate gripe.  I also figured by posting some of the questions I asked, and the answers they provided, the members would also see that someone did address some of the issues with the club again, so if they fail to do anything about it, the members could make up their minds as to the sincerity of this club, based on its supposed charter, as to whether or not the NAFC is in fact just a money racket or not.  In all fairness, as a result of these forums which is a by-product of club membership, I have met (at least on line) alot of good people.  A lot of knowledgeable people who do have sound advice to offer, and whose opinions can be valued.  As to whether or not I decide to renew my membership when it comes due, I am not sure at this stage, but as it stands right now, a life membership is not in the making.  I am taking a wait and see stance, and to me  after 21 yrs of military service, I know lip service when I hear it, and I know what a scripted "company line" is as well.  The person I spoke with on the phone did admit she personally does not look at the website, and I would suspect that is a pretty prevailant attribute of the club hierarchy as well.   But let's at least give them a chance to address the issues as they said they would.

The one thing that I did find really interesting and I guess should be explained a bit more is the product testing policy.  As it was explained to me, especially with some of the products not being "season appropriate" is that the manufacturer will start a product line and want to get feed back.  Now this product line may be a product that is due to be for sale in say October/November, but they need the feedback so they can fine tune the product prior to general release.  This would mean inclimate gear would be tested in May - July.  The other thing which is not posted anywhere is the penalty of not filling out the testing report, whereas, you will be ineligible from future product testing.  This goes back to people wanting something for nothing and using the product testing program as a means to obtain a freebie and abuse the system.  So as harsh as it sounds, it makes perfect sense, especially if a company is good enough to send you something, ask you to test it and report your findings back to them, and you as the product tester blow them off.  Think of product testing as a R&D type program and consider how much money the manufacturer invests in putting together a product and is basically held up because someone isn't willing to fill out a piece of paper.  The tier system they use also makes sense to me as well.  I mean given the fact that someone can't even be bothered to fill out a product report on rubber worms why would you send them a fish finder.  It's an earned trust thing.  Show them you can test the products properly and in a timely fashion, and you earn the trust to test bigger and better things.  I am not taking sides, but it does make perfect sense.

Laz, I really appreciate your kind words.  But I do understand the frustration of the annual members and the life members particularly.  It is a lack of communication and a lack of involvement that fosters that frustration.  What it takes is the willingness to work with the club to make things better.  It is afterall the member's club and it takes involvement to make improvements.  Identify the problem, provide a plausible solution, and present it to the powers that be.  You have done your part and they can't say all people do is bellyache.  Hopefully, I have given them some food for thought, and maybe they will take a more active role in improving the moral of the members. 
Any day on the water or in the woods is solitude itself.

Theolan, you have done an admirable job in your communication with club higherups. I commend you for your efforts on behalf or all N.A.F.C. members. As I have stated before in other postings, I have only been a member for one year and 10 months. In that time I have received for testing two separate packages of soft plastic baits and a balsa crankbait by Alex Lures. I followed the instructions included with those products each time, filling out the product testing report and returning it afterwards, and re-registering to receive another test product. As I stated before, granted these are small low dollar products, but they were free for only a small expendature of my time to test the product, fill out the report and mail it, and re-register as a tester. I can only speak for myself on this matter but following the rules on my part has been rewarded by my receiving another product to test within six months time. When I joined N.A.F.C. I didn't do so to receive free merchandise. I did so to receive North American Fisherman magazine and have access to this website for further information and advise from fellow fisherpersons ( p c term ? ). Any freebees that came along with membership I consider icing on the cake. I have also received the hooks and swivels others have mentioned in various posts , and free bonuses of Berkley Trilene XL fishing line in 6#, 8#, and 10# test ratings for timely payments for fishing library books that I have purchased. Again, small items all but all for free. I consider all these things put together to be a nice little thank you from N.A.F.C. for the short time I have been a member. So all things considered I'm very satisfied with my membership. I must agree that I would like to be able to purchase specific items that I desire from a member store and would like to see that implemented ASAP, and also response from the editors on the "ask the editors" thread, and knowing the identities of the club president  and officers should be public record for all membership. Thanks again for your taking initiative to help all N.A.F.C.members.     Happy fishing.

~N.A.F.C.~B.A.S.S.~BoatU.S.~N.R.A.~A.M.A.~

You are very welcome sir.  I just want the club to realize its full potential.  I would also like to see active participation from club hierarchy in attending to the members.  And I would certainly love to see the member store become an online store, and not just some single item sales flyer with a bunch of links to other businesses. 
Any day on the water or in the woods is solitude itself.

Hi theolan, please check out the "ask the editors" thread , the post from sarahn under the "Not very satisfied "and my response to her . Do you have anything to add or any more advise ? A rather angry camper there, however I think sarahn did not correspond in a timely or thorough manner concerning stated problems. Just my take on the situation.     Happy fishing.

~N.A.F.C.~B.A.S.S.~BoatU.S.~N.R.A.~A.M.A.~

Yes sir,

This was one of the items I addressed with the club.  The unsolicited products being sent to the members.  I posed the suggestion to the club as to how best to alleviate this kind of ill feeling.  It does seem ironic that I addressed the top 8 gripes and questions I found scrolling through the threads.  And here is yet another example of a member who is understandably upset, irritated, and frustrated with something that could easily be avoided from the club hierarchy.  My mailman, god love him, seems to just flop letters in who ever's mailbox he feels like.  Three times a week at least, I end up delivering mail from my box to other peoples houses in the neighborhood.  These are the kinds of things that can happen.  Now what if sarahn never received the items he/she was billed for.  How can they ever prove/disprove they received it or not.  Something that is totally avoidable by simply having an on-line store and letting the members buy what they want, when they want it and doing away with unsolicited product mailings...  Newsletters, correspondence, and magazines are one thing, this is quite another.  Not to mention the waste of money involved in postage. 

Any day on the water or in the woods is solitude itself.

hi Theolan, the unsolicited mailings of books ,videos, and calanders don't bother me and I have enjoyed the books and videos that I have accepted. However I think I would prefer to shop at a members store fo the items I prefer rather than the "surprise package" that I may not be interested in . I have returned a few books  and videos that were of little interest to me such as fish species we do not have here in Arizona or species that I personally do not target. I have also returned   cook books as I am strictly a catch and release fisherman. But that is just me. I know others do not wish to be targeted with unsolicited mailings. Again, the online store would aleviate these complaints from disgruntled members.     Happy fishing.

~N.A.F.C.~B.A.S.S.~BoatU.S.~N.R.A.~A.M.A.~

Just a quick question Mr Mystery.  Roughly how many items have you sent back?  I simply pose this question because the average book weighs about 3/4 - 1 lb.  Shipping cost is what 4-5 bucks.  So you double that, once for them sending you the item, and once for when you return it.  Now add in the cost of the packing material and labels, plus the wage of the employee to pack it, and ship it, then the wage of the employee to unpack it when you return it, and restock it.  The books run about 15 or so a piece, but when you return the book, that book actually costs the club more than the cover price.  And you are just one person.  There are over a few thousand members of NAFC, so now multiply that cost over all the members that send the items back, which by law of averages is a third or maybe 40%.  So in reality, they are lucky to break even with the unsolicited mailings.  Let's just speculate what could be done with the money that is saved in mailings.  So for the sake of argument, lets round off the costs of the savings, 8 Dollars for the shipping (to and from), overhead costs of $4.00 for the wages, labels, electricity, packing materials, and such.  So $12.00 per book or video is saved per member.  Conservative estimate of 3000 members is $36,000.00.  That is just one mailing.  That 36k could be invested into better membership gifts.  Things like milestone gifts for the members, something to recognize 5yr, 10 yr, 15yr members for example.  Now you have as a member something to look forward to for paying your dues and not cancelling your membership, the club wins as well, because you are happier, and more likely to solicit people you know to join the club.  It is just simple economics, and unfortunately, businesses prefer tax breaks based on cost of operation and not so much on the morale of the customer.  Even so, the gifts the club sends out, are also a tax deductible cost of operation, so they even get the benefit of providing the gift to the member.  Everyone wins.  Or what's more, the club could used the saved money to HOST member get togethers, like a national convention of sorts and then could use that convention as a means to generate business in product sales, membership drive, and the like.  Manufacturers will then see a LARGE gathering of potential customers and would likely up the ante with the products filtered to the club for testing.  I am just spitballing here, but why stagnate when the club has the opportunity to excellerate.  Here is more food for thought, and it's true with large special interest type organizations, like veteran organizations for example.  They employ PACs (political action committees) to lobby congress for things that are specific to their cause.  Imagine what could be done with fisherman and fisheries management, by simply growing the organization.  Now you would have a large collective of fisherman able to in some way have direct involvement in fisheries management, and not have to rely on the one voice single vote people have now.  As the collective you have one voice, thousands of votes, and the squeeky wheel gets the grease, least ways if the politician wants his job...  And it is possible, how else do you explain veteran organizations, gun rights groups, and their successes in pushing their legislative agendas.  What do you think?
Any day on the water or in the woods is solitude itself.

Hi Theolan. To answer your question first, I have returned 3 books and kept 12. I have also kept 4 DVD's and returned 1. The cost of return postage runs from $1.86 to $2.50 depending on the weight because these items go by USPS media class fees. And again these monies could bee saved by the operation of a members only store online that would enable members to purchase only the items they desire and eliminate shipping costs of unwanted items. Now about your ideas for improving the club. My friend , you should be in charge of this organization or at least a member of the advisory board. You have the insight and inovative ideas to vastly improve N.A.F.C. I have been a member of  N.R.A. and A.M.A. for many years and both of those organizations operate on the principals and formulas you have suggested for N.A.F.C. , and very successufully I might add. I nominate you for president of N.A.F.C. , now I need a second from the floor.     Happy fishing.

~N.A.F.C.~B.A.S.S.~BoatU.S.~N.R.A.~A.M.A.~

This thread is very nicely done.  Many of the responses you received I have heard before.  That being said, I have noticed slight improvements.  But one item stands out to me; product testing response.  I became a life member in Sept. of 2005 and a short time later I received my first testing sample.  I complete the product testing form and profile that was included, and sent it in.  My next testing came shortly after this web site crashed.  There was no test report to fill out, just a note to let me know I can now file my results on the web site.  Well, I got to tell ya, I still have yet to find where this is!  And now I find out I will loose this privledge because I didn't send one in.  I didn't join for this feature, as nice as it is, but I got ta tell ya, one side of this club has no idea what the other is or isn't doing!

Next time you call the club, ask if they have a full time web master.  I suspect not.  There are several folks that do this type of work in their spare time or professionally and they all say the same thing...What's going on here?

Again, thank you for your time and effort.  I am still waiting for NEW answers!

 

 

LM since 2005 Bushwacker Deputy Sherif

Yes sir, I can most certainly ask that question.  What I was lead to believe is that the club has an Information Technology section that is responsible for the website.  I would think this is most likely the answer, since the gal I spoke to said the IT folks were working on revamping the member store portion of the website.  And as far as the ask the editors area of the forums, I don't believe the editors are the ones that actually post anything, as when I asked about that specifically, I was told their people were prioritizing issues with the website, and log in issues were at the top of the priority.  It would therefore suggest to me that the IT folks are the ones that do the responses.  Also, if you notice in many of the forums, you will see that Internal Administrator tag as a topic starter.  This, as I am sure you know, is a server admin person, again most likely from the IT department.  In regards to your not receiving the product test feedback report, it would be more prudent and proper for you to contact the club, identify the fact that you did not receive the form and that you desire to provide the feeback on the product they sent, so you do not loose that membership benefit.  I have to admit, I have read the same responses in other posts from other members who have called the club.  The responses very well may be a company line, or lip service as I call it, but I think eventually they may get the message and actually do what it is they claim with their responses.

I am not opposed to being the thorn in their side, but I would like to see this club become better than what it is at the present.  I would really love to see the members morale improve.  And I think if the club would be a bit more transparent in their business practices, the members might actually be more patient with the hierarchy.  I do find it troubling that they do not even make the members aware that they loose the product testing benefit if they fail to complete the report.  And what is especially picant, is the fact that after they send you an unsolicited item, you don't pay for it, then they send you a threatening letter about paying for the item, and after you give in and send them the money, they turn around and send you a spool of fishin line for making prompt payment.  Quite honestly, I don't get it...

Anyhow I did suggest they add a link for complaints and feedback, so members could directly correspond with member services via the website.  It is a pointless suggestion, as it is apparent, and admittedly so by the gal I spoke to, that they do not even look at the website. 

Any day on the water or in the woods is solitude itself.

---

I have made numerous comments suggesting easier and more cost effective ways of doing things. I have made them in writing as well as verbal suggestions when I had an NAFC employee on the phone. They covered the majority of everything you very eloquently stated Theolan.

As much as I hate to say it, after all your gallant efforts Theolan, and after reading previous concerns of members from over the past 12 - 18 months, there appears to be a corporate letter NAFC members go by as far as responses to the concerns. On the surface it sounds like alot of lip service.

For any NAFC employee or Board Member reading this, I want NAFC to be successful, I am not here to bash the organization. But I should be spending this time reading about, and responding to fishing related content, not post after post after post of bickering and bantering over the way the company is conducting business.

Here's one of the most recent e-mails I sent to them about a month ago.

"Good Morning,

 I had a quick question. Are you going to allow members to pay their dues, as well as pay for any books they decide to keep through an online payment program? I would think the cost of sending out invoices, return envelopes, not to mention the processing costs associated with it would, be cost prohibitive. In todays world, paying online is a fast, convenient and cost effective method of doing business.

 Allow your members the option of receiving their bills as normal through the mail, or click the “box” to receive bills via e-mail that can be paid online. Give a 2% discount ( or some appropriate % ) to users who pay online in a timely fashion. Saves you the processing costs, mailing costs, as well as more than likely will speed up your average receivables payments by as many as 5 – 8 days.

Allow your members to see what the upcoming books and DVD's are and tell you ahead of time if they wish to receive said book or DVD. HUGE costs savings in shipping and return costs, and labor costs of re-stocking the items to the shelves. Not to mention collection costs from pursuing members that have no intent of keeping that particular selection.

Just food for thought.

Thanks,

Morgan Ellingson

Member # xxxxxxxx (my e-mail did have my member number included by the way)

CaptainMo

Sir, Thank You for what you did and being concerned for this club.  

Agreed, there is a lot of unhappy people in the club, and I really can't disagree with the agitation and frustration.  I, myself, am more than a bit irked after my phone call with them this afternoon.  A simple request concerning information of forming a chapter for my home state, and I get the response, "Did you check the website," to wit my response was the website is sheet.  And if there was information about a chapter, I wouldn't be calling.  Then, god love em, "there is a link to ask questions like this to the editors."  Again, my response, well I have sent 6 e-mails in the past 2-3 months and I haven't heard back from anyone, therefore, I am calling.  Finally, I speak to a supervisor, after having a conversation with a person on the phone, that quite honestly, my 3 yr old could provide better answers, and I get the same song and dance.  In the end, I am told send the request in writing to our corporate office.  Now it would seem to me, after I explained, I am trying to start a chapter of NAFC here in Montana, in an effort to recruit more members, thus bringing more revenue to this club, that they would make an effort of some sort, but no, of course not.  So truly, I have no misconceptions about the real motivational factor for this club, as it is more than apparent, the members are just seen  as irrelevant, when I am sure I interupted the customer service gal's game of solitaire, and most likely interrupted the supervisor's nap. 

So what comes next folks?  I guess it is us and them, and as far as I am concerned, they will not make another dime from me.

 

 

Any day on the water or in the woods is solitude itself.

It`s a shame the NAFC has turned into this. Theo, a little over a year ago the folks here (old site) would have given the shirt off their back to support the NAFC. How low it has gone in such a short time has been sad to watch.

 

 

---

Well I know.  We have talked a bit out of the forums about it, and I do like the people that I have met here in my short time as part of the club.  I guess that is all really someone should expect.  Maybe I just got a bunch of trainees today, or maybe I got a disgruntled employee (wouldn't surprise me) who just doesn't give two sh1ts.  But, for the love of Pete, if you have no clue and you don't give a sh1t, don't answer the phone, get a paper route.  It just p1sses ,me off to no end.  Image is is half the battle, competence is the other.  It just seems as if the image sux, but it's twice as good as the competence level.  I am trying to remain upbeat, in hopes this will turn around, not just for my benefit, but for the benefit of all.  When you have a member, who expresses an interest in making things better, a willingness to promote what is to all purposes a substandard organization, in hopes that by generating more interest, more perspectives, and bring people together working toward a common goal, then the organization OWES it to them, and all the members for that matter, to make an honest, genuine effort.  In this they Fail and Fail miserably.  Maybe I am starting to see things for what they are, and nothing more.  Who knows.  But I do like the people here, but you don't have to be a dues paying member to post to the boards, and maybe that is my consolation departing member gift...
Any day on the water or in the woods is solitude itself.

i recieved a test product over a month ago and it had no survey form with it, so i called the club and finally got ahold of someone and told them that no testing reply form was sent with my item, and if she could send me one in the mail and if she could also please send me a couple life member stickers,,, well i got the stickers and still no test product survey form???  before it was an online survey but i wasn't sent anything , now i have to play phone tag ta get one, but i must say since i joined in 2002 i have tested several items, most cheap stuff but i have had a couple 50-100$ items and have always returned my review quickly and even had one of my reviews in the magazine, maybe thats why i didn't get a review paper so i get crossed off the list.
life member since march 2002 on the water in PA....go big or go home